Interview with Christine Payne-Towler

One could say that most people start out living primarily in one part of the deck – a particular element, rank, number or Archetype -- more then they do the rest of the map. This will color the information that person can ‘see’ across the whole deck. One interpreter will see action-prescriptions in every card, where another will counsel from the Inner Sanctum no matter what the question was. Each person brings to the Tarot the strengths and weaknesses they already have, and each person reads the cards through the lens of their own energetic constitution. It takes time and careful attention to other people’s experiences to broaden and deepen a reader to the point where they can really fathom every card.

This is Tarot’s true genius -- it helps a person see the full spectrum of human potential spread out as if on a graph or chessboard. The pack of cards is, in actuality, a cut up graph, the deck as a whole being a mirror for the soul. In the areas of life where you are strong, you can see yourself clearly in the cards that speak to those skills and sensitivities. In the areas where you are weak or inexperienced, you can see this as well because the corresponding cards seem enigmatic, veiled and unclear.

Tarot gives us a set of tools with which to evaluate the experiences one is always having anyway. Even without throwing cards into spreads to make readings, one can learn about the constitution of the world and of oneself through studying the ways Tarot is put together. Further insight comes via the implications that become visible when one relates Tarot to its sister arts Astrology, Kabala, Numerology, and Image Magic.

Everything we learn through the medium of Tarot increases our self-knowledge, and our awareness of what is possible in human potential. To me, that is the definition of “initiatory”. Tarot helps us to become shamans of our own inner lives. What could be more magical and self-transformative than that?

BC: What do you see ahead for the world of Tarot?

CPT: Frankly, I haven’t got a clue. Now more than ever, I have tunnel vision. Certain things that I am supposed to do are showing themselves to me, but I have no idea “what will happen” out there outside the tiny point of my spotlight, which is oriented towards the past rather than the future at this time. I’m still digging around the roots of Tarot, no matter what the trunk, branches, or leaves are up to these days!

Watching the Internet, its clear that Tarot is circling the world. People with their own indigenous divinatory traditions are picking up the Tarot at great speed, which is quite intriguing. I’m excited just to be present at a time like this. I hope there will be more interest in the subject, including more writers and thinkers who can operate and discourse beyond the beginning and intermediate topics. What I want for Tarot is that it will continue to mature.

BC: Christine, our world is changing very rapidly. How do you see the Tarot being put to best use by individuals attempting to find their peace with this changing world?

CPT: Our only choice is to stay true to ourselves. There is some reason why we have our own special inherent qualities, inborn desires and innate tendencies. We have to explore the mysteries of our own unique design in order to understand what Deity might have been thinking when we were created. There’s nothing more miserable than getting caught up in the feeling that life, our existence, is meaningless!

Depression and disappointment are rampant in this world. There’s somebody in your face to tell you NO every day. It is thus incumbent upon each of us to actively seek out things that increase the meaningfulness of life and dispel the feeling that we are all just pin balls, randomly crashing around in a cruel machine. Tarot is a tremendous tool for registering synchronicities, highlighting the weavings of magic and significance through our days and nights. It increases the interior texture of our reality, offering a framework within which to evaluate and organize our thoughts and feelings. Tarot can provide us with a place to go and work things out even when there is no person around to discuss things with. This can be invaluable in our increasingly depersonalized world.

BC: What lies ahead for you …where are your studies currently taking you?

CPT: I feel like my studies are circular -- always curving back around over the same basic ground, though always cutting a slightly wider swath with each arc. One thing that is thrilling and exciting as we go into 2008 is that there is a depth of research mounting up that was never available before, especially in English language translations. Because of the opening of several University programs highlighting Western Esotericism, there has been a boom in textbooks and investigations across all the subjects this genre impinges upon. I look forward to studying to my heart’s content, and following my muses into the realms that open up as a result. I’m possessed of a strong longing to indulge my melancholic, midnight-oil burning Saturnine side after the vast changes of the last few years, just let my million vectors settle while I think deeply about the Mysteries. I’m old enough now to be the Hermit, and it looks like a really great lifestyle.

Another goal is to bring together a number of things I have written over the years and get them in shape to share over at Tarot University. Because of my most recent move, I finally have enough space around me to open up my files and catch up with myself after years of small living spaces. Recently I opened up a dusty accordion-file containing a manuscript I put together in 1986, and it was thrilling to see how much raw material was waiting for me in there. I have boxes of files and tapes yet to investigate!

There’s one more thing I’d like to see happen as time goes on, though I know this can only emerge organically, as Spirit leads. It is a cherished, long-held dream of mine to help support the creation of some 21st century Continental-style Tarots. I love all the families in this stream – the original handmade and woodblock packs, the Marseilles family, the very alchemical Flemish branch, the Etteilla group, the ‘so-called Egyptian’ packs popular in the Orders and Lodges, the Spanish packs, and the modern esoteric packs from all over Europe. There’s a huge amount of space there for creative artists and gifted metaphysicians to contribute wonderful working tools that reflect the best of Tarot tradition. If I get the chance, I would love to attend the birth of a few of these future gems.

Unless the world suddenly shifts on it’s axis, those are my goals for the upcoming years.

BC: Are there any last words that you would like to leave with our readers?

CPT: Only that for best results, one might consider interacting with one’s cards every day, even without a reason or a particular issue to investigate. Just take some time out to shuffle them, maybe turn up one card and then go on about your business. Let the cards come into your interior conversations, and make them a normal part of your routine. You might never get a chance to witness, as I do nearly every week, the depth of synchronicity and breadth of expression that the cards are capable of. (Not everybody has a professional calling with the cards, after all.) That really doesn’t matter, though, because the Tarot is right there for you any time you can remember to give it a look. You don’t need me or any other person to stand between you and your intuition, just plunge on in and see what shows itself to you. The more you shuffle up and ‘play’ with them, the more they will show you the missing pieces of your pattern.

Also, please realize this; despite being good at the Tarot, or astrology, or any other divinatory art, nobody is omniscient or infallible. Everybody has blind spots, and there are surprises awaiting us all right around the corner of time. Approach your oracle with an open mind and heart, and you will be led, one step at a time, through your lessons. Understand that Tarot is a mirror of the Now, and once new action is taken, the probabilities change and the old reading must be left behind. No single card or spread is a promise, but by following the trends as you see them developing, you can be better positioned for what is upcoming. Also, no card is an island: for every card that appears, remember there’s a just cause behind it and a natural consequence that will follow it. Read the momentum as well as the card itself!

Thank you very much, Bonnie, for your generosity in giving me this bully pulpit to preach from. And thank you, dear reader, for spending this time with me.

I want to thank Christine for taking the time to share with us. You can find her Interactive work on Tarot.com, and her Tarot University site can be found here.

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Biography: Christine Payne-Towler is the founder of Tarot University, established to promote the understanding and study of Tarot as a useful astro-alpha-numeric document with relevance in the twenty-first century. Utilizing her scholarship in historical Tarot, she designed the layouts and wrote the interpretive text for the automated online Tarot reading program at the popular Tarot.com website, offering an online tarot alternative for people who need strong wisdom-tools for personal insight near at hand. A CD ROM of the original interactive tarot computer program, “Tarot Magic”, is also available.

She has written and lectured extensively on the history of Tarot, with an emphasis on historical accuracy. Her essays, videos and lecture recordings of the past twenty eyars are currently being transcribed and published online throughout 2005 via The Tarot ArkLetters, a publication of Tarot University designed for students of Tarot.

Tarot University online tele-classes with Christing take place periodically. Students and interested folks can access study materials, practice tools, and the schedule on site. The recommended Tarot Online Forum List can be accessed through The Tarot University News weblog.

Payne-Towler currently offers esoteric counseling, personal reading and interpretation for new clients on a limited basis. If her schedule is full (often the case), she highly recommends using her text within the online Tarot-reading program at Tarot.com.

Interview © Bonnie Cehovet, October 2007.

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